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12 November 2006 @ 17:52
PS - Chapter 4 - The Keeper of the Keys  
Comments for Chapter 4.

Post away!
Ianus Incantatus: Espresso 2janus_incantus on 13th November 2006 00:28 (UTC)
General Feelings
I haden't realised on previous reads how emotionally powerful chapter this is. In a short, passing moment, Harry's whole life is turned upside-down and we see his feelings go from apathy through confusion and disbelief to anxiety and enthusiasm.
Ianus Incantatus: Coffee Swimjanus_incantus on 13th November 2006 00:49 (UTC)
I mentioned in my opening statement that I'd be looking into Hagrid more carefully. Indeed, behind a good-humoured character there seems to be an important informant. Most of the things Hagrid says are not accurate, but they tend to always be partially true. So Hagrid's word seems to give us the correct direction, but he is not completely reliable in details.

Apart from the third person limited omniscient narrator (Harry Filter), we seem to have a 'Hagrid Bias', created by the early chapters of Philosopher's Stone, which reinforces the 'Harry Filter'. It is Hagrid who presents an idealised view on Harry's parents. It is Hagrid who makes it clear to Harry (and the reader) that he is famous. And it is Hagrid who firt introduces the idea of the very dark nature of Slytherin House (though that is in the next chapter).
wandrin_dreamer: Cheekypan_alchemist on 29th November 2006 15:37 (UTC)
Re: Hagrid
Well... yes. Hagrid does generalise awfully. But the fact that we know that means that Harry knows that too (the 'filter').

And just a note on Hagrid giving "an idealised view on Harry's parents". Anyone who is going to tell a child that their parents are anything less than good, is rather heartless. And heartless is one thing we know Hagrid isn't. It is also very difficult to look at people you admire or like and see their flaws.

wandrin_dreamerpan_alchemist on 29th November 2006 16:13 (UTC)
Re: Hagrid
Hagrid's Devotion to Dumbledore

"Never insult Albus Dumbledore in front of me."

Vernon got a much bigger reaction from Hagrid after insulting Dumbledore than he did after, in my opinion, a much more nasty attack on the Potters.

Why is Hagrid so devoted to Dumbledore? Is it because Dumbledore didn't think he opened the Chamber of Secrets?

Ianus Incantatus: Espresso 1janus_incantus on 13th November 2006 01:20 (UTC)
Voldy & the wizarding world & AK
Ok, that was a bit complicated title to basically refer to Godric's Hollow events.

Hagrid says (boldings mine): Some say he died. Codswallop, in my opinion. Dunno if he had enough human left in him to die. Some say he's still out there, bidin' his time, like, but I don't believe it. People who was on his side came back ter ours. Some of 'em came outta kinda trances. Don' reckon they could've done if he was comin' back. Most of us reckon he's still out there somewhere but lost his powers. ...

I find many interesting points in these few sentences.

1) Did Hagrid know about horcruces? Or was it pure coincidence and guesswork he thought there was not enough human left in Voldemort to die? How much does he actually know and what will that imply to the plot in book 7?

2) This reinforces point #1; It doesn't seem plausible that Hagrid wouldn't know about imperitus curse. However, it's probably a subject he thinks he shouldn't talk to Harry, so he uses a vague expression 'kind of trances' instead. This seems to suggest he is not a completely loose cannon, but consciously filters the information he gives out (so he didn't talk about horcrux either).

3) Who are the 'most of us' Hagrid is referring to? Is he thinking about the Order (which most certainly wasn't active at that time)? The happening in OotP give an impression that the majority of Britain's magical population was blissfully ignorant about Voldy's eventual survival.
molecules and agitationdacian_goddess on 16th November 2006 20:03 (UTC)
Re: Voldy & the wizarding world & AK
Those really are very interesting points - I especially like the emphasis you placed on "most of us"; at first read, you'd imagine Hagrid in fact refers to the general public - particularly since we learned when he got Harry away from the Dursleys, that Hagrid's technically not supposed to do magic. That would tend to give the reader the impression that Hagrid is representative of the "average Joe", as it were - just your unschooled groundskeeper, a variable representative of the mediocrity. Of course, in hindsight, we have Hagrid as a very perceptive individual, and an intensely loyal one, to boot. The meaning of most of us could be that Hagrid is referring, not to the Order, but to Dumbledore's most loyal.

*p.s. I go by MysticAngel on HPN ;-)*
Ianus Incantatus: Espresso 4janus_incantus on 17th November 2006 09:46 (UTC)
Re: Voldy & the wizarding world & AK
Wow, our first 'external' commentator! You are hereby awarded a diploma... here we go.

I'm also inclined to think that Hagrid is referred to Dumbledore's 'most loyal'. It's almost scary to note that the reader cannot safely disregard even the most minor details; they can get whole new meanings in the later books.

PS. I added you to my frieds list, too, along with those who have signed in as 'followers' of this community.
wandrin_dreamerpan_alchemist on 29th November 2006 15:23 (UTC)
Re: Voldy & the wizarding world & AK
Very interesting.

I think you guys have covered most of the plausible answers.

I would like to point out the use of the word 'human'. There are many interesting references to 'being human' throughout the books. I think we should keep an eye out for them.
Ianus Incantatus: Espresso 4janus_incantus on 13th November 2006 01:29 (UTC)
I forgot this from the previous:

4) How did the Godric's Hollow get blasted? The AK course didn't seem to make any harm to Riddle House, nor were any notable side effects observable when Cedric was killed. The spell did hit the statue in the Ministru in OotP (IRC), but even then the harm was nothing close to complete destruction. As Voldemor was hardly in his powers after the spell had rebounded, this seems to support the theory that there was a fifth person present.
wandrin_dreamer: Cheekypan_alchemist on 29th November 2006 14:59 (UTC)
Re: AK
Yes! This is one of my big questions.

We see from all other battles that the AK should not have been responsible for that much destruction.

There is at least one other reference to Harry blowing up a house. [Chap 2, just after they have discover that Mrs Figg has broken her leg] It may be coincidence, but it could also be the result of Dumbledore having mentioned in his letter what happened to the house at Godric's Hollow (the Dursleys could be scared that Harry would do the same thing to their house).

I am not too sure about whether the destruction could support the idea that there was a fifth person there or not. I would be happier to offer a more complete comment on that though, if we had more information on love. For now, all we have is Dumbledore's word in OotP: "It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature. ... It is that power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all." [Chapter 37; Bloomsbury: 743] With that description, I guess it is safe to assume that 'love' could cause that much destruction. But whether that is what happened or not is really anyone's guess at this point. All we know is that Voldemort's curse apparently rebounded.

wandrin_dreamerpan_alchemist on 29th November 2006 15:43 (UTC)
The Dursleys
1) An observation.

When Hagrid came, Petunia and Vernon didn't make any move to protect Harry. They warned Dudders against eating anything Hagrid gave him, but had no objection letting Harry eat it.

2) Petunia

Fandom specualtion has it that Petunia was jealous of Lily. I suppose her speech here definitely could support that.
wandrin_dreamer: Cheekypan_alchemist on 29th November 2006 15:48 (UTC)
Your mum's eyes
This is an idea that I can't shake off.

Throughout all the books, it has been emphasised that Harry has his mother's eyes.

I seem to like the saying that "One's eyes are the window to their soul."

From what we know of Lily, she was a good soul. She also seemed to have a lot of love in her. It is just an idea - discard or develop at will.
wandrin_dreamerpan_alchemist on 29th November 2006 15:56 (UTC)
Voldemort and Hogwarts
Hagrid says: "Didn't dare try taking the school, not just then anyway."

Now... does this mean that Voldemort tried or planned to do it at a later date? We know from HBP that Voldemort tried to get a job at Hogwarts. But would Hagrid know that? I can't see Dumbledore telling him that - unless it was important for the First War.

I know this is Hagrid talking, so we can take this with a dash of salt. But as Janus said, Hagrid is usually partially accurate.
wandrin_dreamer: jocappan_alchemist on 29th November 2006 16:16 (UTC)
My sundry Questions and Observations
1) Why didn't Voldemort try and recruit Lily and James? After all, Voldemort uses underhand tactics...

2) Hagrid becoming the game keeper. Surely he couldn't have done that at the tender age of 13/14?